Breakdown of Ron Paul’s 4th quarter spending, Some questionable.
Posted on February 1st, 2008 by bile Categories and Tags: Uncategorized, California, Creative Cable Television Inc., Direct Results Radio, donation, economics, elections, FEC, Iowa, Jesse Benton, John Clifton, Jonathan Bydlak, Libertarian Party, New Hampshire, NO, politics, prepaid media, printing, printing costs, printing/processing/postage, Queens and Manhattan Libertarian Party, R/S, Republican Party, Ron Paul, Ron Paul Meetup Paul, Signs/Sign Supplies, South Carolina, Thanksgiving, your moneyJohn Clifton, a fellow member of the Queens and Manhattan Libertarian Party’s has sent around a breakdown of the Ron Paul for President 2008 campaign’s expenditures for the 4th quarter of 2007. I’ve not confirmed the data with the FEC but as he points out there are some questionable expenditures and I can only hope that the campaign will respond to these statements.
A very detailed breakdown of Paul’s 4th quarter
campaign spending, from a post on ronpaul forums:Where $17M went in the 4th Qtr
These are the major category expenses from the 4th
Quarter FEC report for the RPPCC (taken from the raw
FEC data files and then sucked into a DB and totaled.)Bulk Mail Printing/Processing/Postage ……..
4,329,007.44
Radio Spot Expense ………………………
3,092,519.89
Television Spot Expense/Production ………..
2,192,292.56
Telecommunications ………………………
1,514,587.03
Television Spot Expense ……………………
906,702.32
Salaries …………………………………
532,929.25
Credit Card Contributions Processing Fee …….
483,249.47
Signs/Sign Supplies ……………………….
451,796.19
Payroll Tax Expense ……………………….
394,600.75
Airline Travel ……………………………
380,840.50
Reimbursement Expenses …………………….
328,504.73
Consulting-Political Field Work …………….
320,851.92
Campaign Shirts …………………………..
247,442.55
Freight/Shipping Expenses ………………….
220,911.91
List Rental/Purchase ………………………
220,046.04
Freight ………………………………….
206,369.07
Bulk Printing-Slim Jims ……………………
202,890.00
Bulk Mail Postage\Processing ……………….
200,020.99
Bulk Printing …………………………….
160,250.28
Campaign Buttons/Stickers/Etc ………………
125,910.00
———————————————————–
TOTAL …………………………………
16,511,722.89
That’s it for the main expense data folks.Everthing else below is my “educated guesses” based on
some further (more detailed) analysis of the numbers
BEHIND the data above.DO NOT READ ANY FARTHER if you do not want to know.
Ok, for those who ARE interested (or like myself, NEED
to know this stuff) — well, unfortunately I *think*
that I now understand why the campaign was NOT so
forthcoming with where the money went.Before you panic — It does NOT look like there was
any philandering anywhere, but there definitely WERE
some major blunders and bad choices made. IMHO, it is
a case of inexperience and incompetence followed by
some solid CYA.The BIGGEST Expense item shown there is the $4.3M for
printing/processing/postage — and this all appears to
have been spent with a single firm out of New
Hampshire (Tier 3 Advertising, Inc.) — it consisted
of 24 payments from 10/15 thru 12/28 (Avg $176,640).That looks to me to be a series of MAJOR mailings to
virtually everyone in the state. (This was a HUGE
EXPENSE it could be argued received little ROI in
terms of votes. However, it *might* also argues as a
cause of the high donations from NH, so it may
actually have balanced out. I haven’t done totals and
quarter % comparisons on donations from NH… so no
idea yet.) Since NH has a population of a little over
1.2 million — if we estimate a general household size
of 2.5 people that gives us about 450,000 households
– so about $10 per household was spent on printing &
mailings. Since the only thing that I am aware of that
was mailed was the large 12page, full color bio book,
it seems like someone got snookered on printing costs!
Whoever made THIS decision was thinking either that it
would produce a 1st place, AND/OR they thought they
were running a Romney-style $100M campaign.
Regardless, major faux pas.The second biggest expense was the payment of $3M for
Radio spots, of which some $2.8M was spent with a firm
called “Direct Results Radio” — consisting of 11
payments from 10/11 thru 12/27 (Avg $260,985). Know
way of knowing exactly where this was targeted, but IA
and NH are the only obvious choices (possibly some SC,
but who knows?)Third biggest expense, and perhaps the second most
troubling after the $4.2M mailers, is the $2.1M in
television production costs. Since the LION’S SHARE of
this $ 1,558,243 was paid to a single firm (Creative
Cable Television Inc. of California) in 5 payments
from 11/08 thru 12/13 (Avg $311,648) — it seems the
initial “dopy” ads (and the Iowa “Special”???) were
REALLY EXPENSIVE. Only explanation I can give is that
someone got snookered, BIG TIME.So… from all of that, I am willing to posit SEVERAL
things:1) OTHER than the things I’ve already cited (which
granted are enough to sink a ship) spending looks to
be relatively well managed. (Spending a quarter of a
million on campaign shirts — 1/2 the amount you spent
on campaign signs — seems a bit much, but if this
included the many clothing items available through the
store… well, it wouldn’t be high on MY priority
list, but it is NOT “insanely” wasteful, maybe just a
bit irresponsible). Amazingly, salaries were pretty
frugal, so they didn’t go “nutso” in hiring gobs of
people, and I would venture to say that MOST of the
campaign staff are good people earning less than they
would make at other jobs. Other expenses look pretty
appropriate as well (people are NOT eating “surf N
turf” every night on an expense tab).2) UNLESS the big “Creative Cable Television” expense
was a some 5 month-ahead prepaid media-buy for
February 5th… then as an EDUCATED GUESS, I would say
it is as many of us suspected after the initial set of
TV ads were released (”He’s catching on”???)
…Someone sold the campaign management a set of
“Emperor’s Clothes” regarding those ads; and the
campaign was just to sheepish to admit it. (The
company that produced the ads — CCTV looks to be a
small-time outfit that hit the proverbial “jackpot”
and found someone with a certain word on their
forehead! Their web page alone is atrocious
http://www.creativecabletv.com/ and should have been
enough to warn anyone competent that this company was
NOT a high-grade professional outfit worthy of $1M
productions… their portfolio does NOT provide any
candidate names or ad samples, WHY NOT? )3) BUT after 12/13 the bleeding stopped — the
campaign had apparently learned its lesson and been
properly chastised. Because while there are several
additional “Television Spot Expense/Production” –
they are all with OTHER companies where the costs are
very reasonable ($7K, $20K, etc) and some of them even
have solid looking websites, “EFX Media” for example
(though why someone would name their company “R/S/M”
– as one of the other firms did — in the age of the
internet strikes me as not too bright — but at least
they were a good value.)4) Jesse Benton is an either an idiot OR he was
majorly lied to (CYA) and hung out to dry — and
didn’t bother to verify anything before he spoke on
the RPR interview — while he was essentially correct
about the campaign having around $8M in cash-on-hand
at the end of the quarter, he was WAY OFF on where the
money went. It did NOT go to pay for charter flights
for Dr. Paul. (Airline Travel expenses at $380,000 are
NOT a major expense when compared to two other
categories and payments to only a few firms that cost
over $7M in total.)5) Again, unless I’m wrong and it was an unheard of
4-month ahead pre-planned prepaid media buy for Feb
5th (and I’d need to see the invoices before I’d
believe THAT) then ONE OR MORE HEADS should have
rolled over the TV ad debacle, and the ridiculous NH
mailer expenses — though actually they never should
have had authority to spend that kind of cash in the
first place (they essentially spent MORE than the
ENTIRE 3rd Qtr donations on the NH mailers and the TV
Ad debacle.)6) Jonathan Bydlak was NOT lying when he claimed the
campaign was nearly out of cash around Thanksgiving.
(What he was NOT clear on was the REAL reasons why…
I would venture to say he didn’t know, probably STILL
doesn’t know.)7) While the Mailing thing was a much BIGGER expense
than the TV spot creation spending, mailing costs
(especially for fancy flyers) are NOT cheap and it
seems like someone just over-committed without getting
proper costs ahead of time (or maybe as I posited
before, they thought they were running Obama’s or
Romney’s campaign? …dunno). Only folks who live in
NH can know how many pieces — OTHER than the 12 page
full-color bio book — were printed and mailed and
what type they were, etc. There is definitely room in
$4.2M to hide just about anything, but it seems MOST
likely to be just a REALLY bad choice (and maybe bad
management in overpaying for some things, or paying
for first class rather than bulk or ?)8) Someone from California should probably check into
this “Creative Cable Television Inc.” and make certain
there is NO direct association with any campaign
staffers or other behind-the-scenes shenanigans going
on here (hey, it’s not exactly unheard of for
campaigns to have people “launder” money to themselves
and “friends” or “relatives” — I see no evidence here
of anything OTHER the campaign being suckered, but who
knows… it does happen.)Well, that pretty much does it for me tonight. Some of
you may hate me for posting this (especially the
analysis — which granted is just educated guesses) –
but hey, I’m just the data analyst and the messenger.
I didn’t sign any contracts or make any agreements or
cut any of the checks above.And I’m not exactly a happy camper right now myself…
Indeed, I did NOT set out to find this, and had hoped
to NOT find anything of the kind (and there IS still
the VERY remote possibility that my “educated guess”
is WAAYYY off base, and that this was some type of
pre-buy… but I sincerely doubt it).Well, I need some sleep. It’s been a long night.
—–Peace & Freedom, John—–
National Coordinator, Paul for President Coalition
Organizer, NYC Ron Paul Meetup
Paul “Save Our Generation” Grassroots Commercial:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oOc7O9_Ux_8
34 Responses to “Breakdown of Ron Paul’s 4th quarter spending, Some questionable.”
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February 1st, 2008 at 11:25 am
Interesting
February 6th, 2008 at 9:31 pm
One fact that you have wrong is the number of mailings.
There were about two dozen different pieces mailed out to NH voters. I know this because that is approximately what I received.
Another point that I’d differ with you on is the campaign staff. To be honest, they are nice people, but they don’t know what the hell they are doing. These are basically recent college grads with no (possible) experience. The campaign director, Jared Chicoine, has been involved in politics and worked for staet reps and a US Senator, but he NEVER had responsibilities of this magnitude before, and it showed. He did not hire well. This is not to say that they were all chumps, but there are several issues that I would be glad to discuss with anybody who seriously wants to know…
Also, the mistakes of failing to locate in teh major cities of NH (Nashua, Manchester, Salem, Portsmouth…) was, if not fatal in and of itself, a source of isolation and missed opportunities for exposure - among a large number of people who were looking for Ron Paul, or anybody as an alternative to the NEOCONs. This and other problems, like not being able to get telephones working - except in Concord, resulted in a series of missed opportunities.
I don’t know where the money went, but I know where it should have gone:
#1 - aggressive and experienced campaign managers/staff.
#2 - infrastructure in strategic locations
This has been one of the most trying and needlessly frustrating things I have ever experienced. As it turns out, the volunteers knew more about everything than the campaign did.
Sorry guys, I know your hearts are in teh right place but this was a total cluster-fuck.
Rich
February 6th, 2008 at 9:43 pm
I agree. The campaign grew too quickly and was not prepared for what occurred. What I posted was an analysis available on RonPaulForums. I just posted it here for greater coverage.
February 6th, 2008 at 10:35 pm
I know. It just seems like a harsh criticism is on order.
There’s no telling how many people were alienated by this performance, in spite of the talk of new growth in pa=triotic and liberty-oriented groups. It;’s just too early to know what teh effects will be.
Rich
February 7th, 2008 at 7:30 am
I don’t think it’s as bad as you make it out to possibly be. I never expected the retention rate to be more than 25% or so. I think there are many supporters who just jumped on the bandwagon and will just as quickly jump off. However, that ~25% who truly understand that, rightly, this isn’t about the Ron Paul for President campaign but about freedom will stay. Some will stay in the Republican Party and perhaps join the RLC. Take small positions in local GOP chapters and support "Ron Paul Republicans" around the nation as with what’s happening with Murray Sabrin’s campaign. Some will go toward the Libertarian Party or just continue the fight as a participate of whatever comes their way. I’m not terribly concerned with loosing people who jump ship at the first sight of a storm… we need dedicated people who will continue the fight long after Paul is out of the picture. I think we have people like that and it doesn’t take many of them to change things. Look at what the Christian right and NeoCons were able to do in ~20 years.
The campaign should be scolded and their inefficiency has given me pause but only with regard to campaign and not to the larger picture. It was a great opportunity which may have been missed but we need to accept that and move on.
February 7th, 2008 at 2:31 pm
I don’t want to make an argument out of this but I would like you to think about one aspect of this that everybody seems to be missing.
We don’t have 20 years to change things - and it is NOT all right to lose these fights. To be blunt, Ron Paul got his butt kicked and he was the only candidate who actually supported a constitutional (rational and fundamentally sound) view fo government.
The idea of a lot of Ron Paul lites running for office and becoming established within the existing framework (parties) is worse than a fool’s errand. Now these folks will have an interest in working ‘within the system’ and therefor, they are going to be compromised, within a relatively short time and will become indistinguishable from the (I’m sorry to say this but …) pigs who went before.
Before you jump up at teh perceived insult, think about George Orwell’s ‘Animal Farm’. Pretty soon the dogs will be chasing down the dissenters and the insiders (the two-legged pigs) will be giving the orders. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
It takes a different approach to change the way business is done. I think teh people are not ready for it, and by the time they come to awareness of the stakes and the losses, it will be far too late.
Besides, we already made concessions to align ourselves with the radical Ron Paul. To be accepted into those political organizations - who butchered him - is not only revolting - it is suicidal. To abandon your principles for power is the very - repugnant to self-government - act that leads us to a money system dominated by subterfuge and bribery, a court system which establishes a non-constitutional standard for defining crime (one where a government can assault, rob, spy and commit hellish atrocities yet finds that a man who wants to keep the product of his own labor is a criminal), is just too stinky to even think about.
I urge anybody who is contemplating ‘change from within’ to rethink it. If you think this is contrary to Ron Paul’s message, think about this - how many people voted for Ron Paul? How many allies do you think you will have on the inside? You would have to smoke a lot of weed to think that there is a ray of hope in that boggy mess.
Cheers,
Rich
February 7th, 2008 at 3:21 pm
Sounds like someone is a little tired of electoral politics. Are you asking for an actual revolution, as opposed to a r[evol]ution? Have you taken the step from ballot box to soap box, and are you aware of the next step?
February 7th, 2008 at 3:56 pm
Don’t jump off any bridges…
There is more than one possible way to go. If we too quickly jump to the armed revolt conclusion, we’ll just f it all up for everybody, except the well-defended plutocracy.
No, we need to do things differently, but one thing that will impede us is that artificial construct or - more correctly - that false dichotomy of electoral politics vs. aremed revolution.
Besides which, the original revolutionaries were very well prepared and had a clear and concise objective. It would be foolish to even discuss a drastic measure without understanding the whole process and knowing the likely and unlikely outcomes of such acts. I still do not believe that the solution is well known.
I’m not tired. I’m pissed off. Not at you and my liberty-mided friends though…
Rich
February 7th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
I’m not jumping off any bridges, just admiring the water.
It’s nice to hear it put that way. So my question for you Rich, would be what action do you think should be taken? What do you think people can do?
February 8th, 2008 at 7:14 am
Bosco,
There are so many opportunities (I am relying on the oft-cited Chinese definition of ‘problem’) that I wouldn’t know where to begin.
First, identify a few people who don’t need to follow a leader and discuss it with them. It won’t take long to identify some means of throwing off some of the burdens of society.
We all know that we have to change the way we live to be free. Instead of taking over the ruins of an empire, we should be looking a new arrangement for ourselves.
Sounds a little like Atlas Shrugged, doesn’t it?
Rich
February 8th, 2008 at 7:30 am
Sounds a bit like the Free State Project or Free Town Project. Both political and a-political people working toward freedom. Given that most of the reasonably nice areas to live in the world are already controlled by statists it seems more realistic to make a small part of their world ours and eventually secede if possible. This is obviously assuming an Alex Jones end of the world scenario doesn’t occur.
February 8th, 2008 at 7:39 am
It may sound like that, but they are actually trying to take over the ruins of an empire.
I think it may be more useful to think of it in terms of parallelism. The occupation of enemy territory is more costly than ever imagined by the invading army. It’s a failure awaiting implementation. I would prefer not to have anything to do with the relic, in a low-profile way :)
February 8th, 2008 at 7:45 am
Than what do you propose? You didn’t respond to the second statement. We really have little choice but to work within the system. I’d rather not try to find an atoll somewhere in the Pacific and live out my days eating fish and coconuts. I don’t see how systematically taking over local governments in order to shrink them is any worse than what we have now.
February 8th, 2008 at 9:28 am
It’s not worse, but it also is not what you want either. So you may achieve something, but ultimately you will fail to reach your objective. What’s the point in that?
I’m not looking for an atoll either. However, as a figure of speech or a metaphor, it is useful. The answer to this question: "How can I live as a free man today?" does not presuppose any interaction with a government. The atoll argument is a red herring. The answer to the question has to be found by experimenting. That does mean trying different things, not including throwing yourself in front of a train. To be free, I think, you need to start with some freedom in thinking about what it is to be free in every way. Maybe you can’t even identify freedom because you (we) are so mired in the context of this 1984-ish nightmare. Maybe you have freedom and other valuable things in your life (family and friends…). Realistically, we can improve our freedom individually and mutually only to the extent that we can identify things to change that are within our ability to change. I don’t buy into the trend of many patriots toward martyrdom. Like I say - ‘I ain’t superstitious and I ain’t offerrin’ myself as a sacrificial animal to anybody.’ That’s a start - identifying yourself as a free man… There are no previously tried solutions - not even ‘revolution’. We live in a different world than the renaissance of the founders’ time. Let’s face it, we need a new approach. Rich
February 8th, 2008 at 9:41 am
Thinking free isn’t being free. You have to take action. You can only act so much. You have a life to live. You only have one of them. We have to make compromises. All you are doing is saying what won’t work instead of trying to make them work or coming up with new ideas. We could use a new approach but I’m not hearing one from you.
While you sit around waiting for some new approach to pop into your head I’ll be continuing spreading the message and actively working through all available avenues. The RP movement has opened up many people to the freedom movement. We need to continue that. Most people are apathetic to politics. It doesn’t take many active people to change things.
February 8th, 2008 at 1:17 pm
Rich:
Thank you very much for your response. I would agree that communication is very important. I also think that determining ways of throwing off the shackles of society is important. I am a big fan of getting rid of many methods of control people have over me. How do you feel about methods of undermining society?
Bile:
I don’t know if the libertarian zionism of the FSP is necessarily the correct way to approach this problem. You could be setting yourself up as a target. That being said, it could be a solution in the short term, but I try not to just think of things within my generation.
Both:
The compromise between taking action and living life is an interesting one. I think the more you do in terms of direct action, the easier it gets. I don’t know if I would consider working within the realm of electoral politics to be a good way of achieving my goals. That being said I do vote, but rarely do I try to sway people’s votes. I’d rather change their outlook than have them pull a lever for a name.
So, since I asked for ideas, here are some I’ve had any input is welcome:
1. Consume less. There is a myriad of ways to do this and it will result in paying fewer taxes. It can also be used as a conversation starter with people.
2. Talk with other people, but don’t be arrogant. Being personable is key. Being sincere is also important. People will listen to you if you’re a good speaker and if you’re willing to listen to them.
3. Don’t hesitate to educate. If people want to know facts, give it to them. Help people equip themselves. If somebody is asking you a lot of questions about gun control, take them to a shooting range. Give them factual information as to how a gun works and what it can be used for. Talk to homeless people with your friends, try to figure out where homelessness comes from. Show people how to do things.
4. Don’t be scared to change. Things that don’t change die. From mobility comes power, the same applies to your beliefs. Don’t be scared to tell people you’re not sure.
I can give you specifics on any one of those if you desire, but I didn’t want to bog this thread down with lots of ideas. Rich and bile, your ideas are welcome too.
February 8th, 2008 at 1:48 pm
The FSP is not a libertarian like zionist movement. It’s people who want to live near people of similar mindset with an aim to making it more like they want. How is that any different from moving to live with people who speak the same language or are of the same religion? People ALWAYS ask for an example of libertarian ideas at work and never take historical situations as proof because they have been lied to more often than not that those times where horrible. So the FSP can lead to that example. It is already making a difference with less than 500 people moving. There will be 1000+ by the end of the year hopefully and they are trying to get more early movers to come. I don’t understand what you mean by a short term sollution. I only have one life. If that’s short term… ok. But I’d prefer to live in a more free place with people of like mind where I can "gather the troops" without much effort. In NYC I’d be lucky to get 3 people to help me protest something before the RP movement. In NH you can get a dozen people to protest in 60 minutes for just about anything. They will parrot your actions to force an issue. There were enough Libertarians in the state government to form a caucus which could influence votes. It’s doing a whole lot more than anyone else anywhere with regard to the freedom movement outside the Ron Paul movement. I don’t understand how you can claim to support education and activism when the FSP is exactly that. A group of activists working together to increase efficiency. Isn’t that what you talk about all the time?
Consumption taxes probably make up the least amount of taxes per person. I pay maybe a few thousand in sales tax a year. I pay 1/3+ my salary in income tax, pay roll tax, property tax, SSI, etc.
Your list of ideas are about as generic and useless as possible. No offense but those are absolutely obvious. They are general rules of discussion. We are talking about how to go about bringing about freedom. I’m saying take advantage of all avenues which come your way. I’ve listed it before… I donate to some liberty institutions, talk politics and philosophy with lots of people, educate those individuals, write a blog, go to protests, write my congressmen very regularly, attend conferences, work with the local Libertarian Party, work with Ron Paul and Murray Sabrin campaigns, pass out documentation about those candidates, collect signatures, am a FSP member and keep in contact with other members when appropriate while I’m still not in NH, donate to Free Talk Live which is on 30+ radio stations talking about libertarianism 6 days a week, buy from libertarian supporting companies, etc. Those are all things which can be done on a regular basis without dedicating your life to it. No one has really said anything or anything different. Really what else is there besides isolating yourself from the statist world which means living like Ted K. out in the middle of nowhere? I have one life to live. While things are getting worse it’s hardly as bad as even 1945 here. I’m not ready to run for the hills or firing my gun at men in uniforms. Until the day comes where I’m directly infringed upon through force I’m going to continue my attempt to convert the world through nonviolent means. I’m going to do it while enjoying my videogames, steak and root beer.
February 8th, 2008 at 8:31 pm
Bile,
you are free to do any thing you want to do - take any ‘action’ you think is right.
Don’t make the mistake of thinking that any action is better than none because that’s the road to hell (paved with lots of good intentions). If you don’t know the consequences of your acts, before you commit them, you need a leader. That makes you a tool for whatever your leader wants. Good luck with that.
I know how to think. Hence the idea of me ’sitting around and waiting for an idea to pop into my head’ is a gross misunderstanding of what I said.
That’s actually very funny. Do you suppose the constitution just ‘popped into the head of Thomas Jefferson?
I would venture a guess - that he spent considerable time learning and thinking before arriving at that and every other great feat of his life. Those acts do not come from reaction without thought.
Bosco,
We need to find ways to liberate ourselves (individually) as you identified it. We agree.
Action gets easier, true. But that applies to any action you take, lawful and justifiable, or criminal criminal and immoral actions. I think we also agree that it is better to teach people to think for themselves and to become independent than to (with certain rare exceptions where the candidate represents a change in thought or a ‘renaissance’ himself) - cooperate in a political campaign.
In your list, I agree on every point.
Before I even address Bile’s thoughts about the FSP, let’s clear the air a little bit. I don’t liek or dislike the FSP. I thought I would be a part of it at first, and I have met more than a few members. It is no good to generalize about teh people in it as they are a diverse bunch. The problem with groups is the issue to which I originally alluded and that is the idea of leading/being led and compromise.
To be a part of the FSP, you take on responsibilities to the group. Truly, I am at my best when I am free to choose my own course - in every instance. My most regrettable failures in life have all been related to or due directly to allowing my ‘actions’ to be directed by concern for a group or a movement or an organization fo some kind. I am at my best when relying own my own thoughts and direction. That doesn’t mean I can’t work with people, just that when there arises a conflict in preference or direction, I am always the right man to decide my course.
You can’t be of much use to anyone if that part (yes, the ‘evil’ ego is involved) of you is malfunctioning or enslaved to another’s ego. That’s the bottom line of independence anyway.
Rich
February 8th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
Bile says that the FSP can be a teacher and a unifying theme for people of like mind (specifically about liberty - I believe). We do not disagree there.
The part I question is whether or not the ‘place’ will become more free as a result of having them here. As I said, I know more than a few of them and I know specifically what some of them are trying to accomplish. I understand this well enough to know that there is some real and impressive effort and skill being applied to the problems (at least some of the problems). Whether this will be enough - we don’t know.
Emotionally, it is an attractive proposition to align one’s self with them or a group within the group to work toward a specific goal. The first two examples I can cite are taxation and reforming state government. I think these are both very worthy goals (eliminate unconstitutional taxation and reinstate constitutional principles in the state legislature through ‘good’ laws. I don’t even want to say that I think they will fail - out of respect for those people who are putting themselves at risk and spending a significant portion of their lives at this work. But I will not retract what I said about becoming the thing that you seek to conquer.
That is the trouble with war - you have to become a killer to win it, and it is too easy to become a killer for lesser purposes along the way. After that, you are only arguing about the degree to which you are willing to violate your principles.
So, if you were to look ahead 20 years, would you see some of the FSP people, having succeeded at gaining political power, yet not having ‘finished the job’ arguing against a new crop of upstarts that threaten to ‘revolutionize’ government?
Good intentions are not worth spit unless you can bring the theory into practice.
That is just one of the problems. Another very real danger is that we are out of time and the suppression of freedom is almost complete. If this is the case, they become targets.
There are of course, other possibilities. Maybe these folks can actually overturn the current law that oppresses us. What then? Do we all go home to enjoy life? Then the old boss sneaks back into town and steals power right back… The rate at which these changes could occur could be dizzying. There we are, in the new banana republic of norte america.
What I’m getting at is, that we have to know what our purpose is. For me, it’s very simple. I don’t give a rat’s ass about the government if I can find a way to avoid it. My purpose is the enjoyment of life and that includes spending as much time with the people I love as possible.
It would be nice if we could trust the people who run for and are elected to office, but I think that will continue to be a rarity.
Sorry, cheers,
Rich
Before we get all riled up and take to the streets with anger and good intentions - we had better know what we are doing.
February 8th, 2008 at 8:57 pm
Incidentally, I have no respect for the proposition Bile makes about getting a bunch of people to ‘parrot’ at a demonstration about (no particular but any convenient) some thing. Where is your pride?
February 8th, 2008 at 10:14 pm
richyankee your approach comes across tired, disenchanted, and defeated.
in the dialogues above, you offer more criticism than suggestion.
so again, what do you propose?
February 9th, 2008 at 8:01 am
February 9th, 2008 at 8:11 am
xyz, (sorry, tried to edit the above comment but it didn’t take)
If you actually expect to ‘reap the blessing of freedom…’ then I have a question for you. Do you expect it to be granted to you?
If you don’t actually expect it, why would you undergo the fatigue?
Please explain how the fatigue relates to the outcome. This is your own question and there is no satisfactory answer. If it makes you feel as if it is a worthwhile exercise (whatever yo are doing), then that is your choice (to accept that as its own reward). But if your goal actually requires you to achieve freedom, then you should consider undertaking a course that will allow you to get some freedom to enjoy with the fatigue. Anybody can get fatigue and anybody can convince himself that he is doing a ‘good’ thing.
The standard by which you judge your success should be related to your goal. Fatigue is not freedom.
Rich
February 9th, 2008 at 11:06 am
The road to freedom really doesn’t have an end. True anarcho-capitalism or anarcho-communism or whatever it is that you want probably won’t ever come. It’s a journey. It’s generally a cycle. You act as if it comes and goes in a heartbeat. It obviously doesn’t nor could it nor would it be good for it to happen like that. Jefferson said: "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." and "The natural progress of things is for government to gain ground and for liberty to yield." People become comfortable and passive and liberty is lost. It takes a constant push to keep liberty from taking a nose dive. You can’t reach freedom so you don’t want to bother yourself with the journey. Fine. I really don’t care. Just don’t get in my way and I’d appreciate it if you didn’t go around attempting to disincentivize those who do want to participate. This conversation here is pretty pointless. You’ve got this do nothing, free rider, defeatist attitude and appear to do nothing but complain. I’ve seen no effort made here to provide solutions. We’ve ask you repeatedly and you just deflect the answer. Unless that changes I’m done with the conversation. It has gotten no one anywhere.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:12 pm
Did you actually call me a anarchist? I know I didn’t advocate anarchy, just individual freedom.
I love your metaphors, but I guess I forgot to learn about the cycles of capitalism and communism in school. Which one are we in now? :)
Where you say ‘you act as if it comes and goes in a heartbeat.’ indicates that you don’t understand what I said.
Forget vigilance. You first need something to protect. Liberty, as you say (from Jefferson), has yielded. There is no point in pushing people toward that fight because if they want it, they need no pushing and if you need to push them, they don’t want it - and will sell you out for a barrel of beer. I’ll give you a quote: (Learned Hand)
"Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it. While it lies there it needs no constitution, no law, no court to save it."
Contrary to your assertion that ‘you can’t achieve freedom…’ I am achieving freedom. I am not have bothered to do far more than you have any hint of or understanding, going back to the mid 1980’s.
You think I am in your way. The facts are in your way, not me, and I don’t need to be threatened by you, nor does it frighten me much. But it does reveal a fear on your part to face the facts.
Consider the consequences of your proposal taken to its logical conclusion. Exactly what is your proposal? You have not stated a single action with a chance of bringing about a change to more freedom (that is what you claim is your goal - am I right?).
Please tell me about your successes. I want to know what you are doing and what you have done. Show me.
It seems to me that you have some of it right, but please, save your anger for someone who is denying you your freedom, and don’t vent it off on someone who makes you uncomfortable about the facts.
You could learn a few things from me.
Rich
February 9th, 2008 at 6:14 pm
here’s teh url to that Hand quotation:
http://www.criminaljustice.org/public.nsf/ENews/2002e67?opendocument
February 9th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Uncomfortable? Please. You’ve said nothing. Zero. That’s my point here. You are making no attempt to answer ANY of my questions. All you are doing is complaining and not providing a single bit of advice as to how to make things better.
I didn’t say you were an anarchist. Anarchy tends to be the utopian idea of freedom. The capitalism, communism is the economic part of it. How people interact after their is no government or at least no organized oppression. You completely over analyzed what I said. All I was saying is that whatever your vision for the end goal… the utopian end goal… will not exist.
What do you mean I need something to protect? I have it. It’s called my life and my property. I never said push people to fight. In fact if you actually spent the time to read my posts I don’t push anyone. It’s all voluntary and passive and educational.
You’ve not achieved freedom. Do you pay taxes? You use the internet so I assume you do. Do you agree with every single thing the government does on your behalf in your name? If you do I stand corrected. You are in fact free. However, I very much doubt this is the case.
How are you achieving freedom? You’ve said nothing. Your situation is no different than millions of others. What fear is it that I have?
How do you think the world works? You can’t flick on more freedom. Only those in government can decide whether or not infringe on your rights. My proposals are to do whatever you can that fits within the doctrine of libertarians to chip away the power of those who advocate the infringement of your rights. I said that clearly. Every single one of my stated actions pushes back against the collectivists. It’s a battle of minds, it’s analog, it’s fluid. You can’t say how much affect any particular action has had on the world but it doesn’t change the fact that it does. I have conversations with co-workers and have educated them on many issues. Their understanding of issues has been affected. They are more open to libertarian ideas and solutions. I support Ron Paul. You did too at one point. That has affected hundreds of thousands of people who never bothered before. I see new people all the time volunteering to spread the ideas of freedom. I’ve brought people into that movement. All those individuals I’ve reached will be far less likely to participate in collectivist plans which infringe on my rights. There are 2 obvious successes, where are yours?
If you want to teach anyone anything you aught to loose the arrogant attitude.
February 9th, 2008 at 6:48 pm
Oh, and to teach people you have to actually say something.
February 9th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
a) You have it upside down. The government does not grant freedom, you must take it yourself. Individual rights is the basis of libertarian thought. Do you get it?
b) ”do whatever you can that fits within the doctrine of the what?" You are joking right? Is this ‘your idea of an objective goal? ‘chip away’? Please - you must be able to identify SOMETHING specific. That’s what you keep telling me to do :)
c) ‘push back against the collectivists’? You could be writing comic book.
d) You say that it is impossible to determine the ‘effect’ (correcting your grammar) and that is no reason to stop doing something. That’s a very telling statement in itself.
e) I would not hold your co-worker’s education at your urging or teaching - in very high regard if this is an example of your reason and logic.
f) Ah, finally, you have convinced people to support Ron Paul. Thank you.
You err in stating that I do not support Ron Paul.
What you take for arrogance is my rejection of your attitude. The word is ;’ought’ not ‘aught’ in that sentence.
You would be surprised, but first you have to wake up to the fact that you feel much better about what you have ‘done’ than is justified.
February 9th, 2008 at 9:42 pm
Careful with the grammatical corrections, they are kind of petty and don’t really accomplish much.
richyankee is absolutely correct in the fact that the individual obtains liberty, no one grants it to them.
HA! This is why I read this blog. It makes one pretty thick skinned.
Some ideas:
bile: Have you ever considered brewing your own root beer? I’m not joking. It’s a pretty fun reaction, it’s pretty cheap and you could sell it if you want. You wouldn’t pay taxes and you could help other people not pay taxes. Also you’d show that you don’t need the FDA to regulate food products. It’d be a good conversation starter.
bile and richyankee: Have you ever considered becoming self employed? More taxes to be avoided. How about starting an after school program, or working with a mentoring program? How about starting a book club?
richyankee: Have you considered music as a means of getting you message across? I don’t know if you play an instrument, but it can be a good way to get people to listen.
February 9th, 2008 at 9:57 pm
a) Can you quote where I said that the government granted freedom? I didn’t. I said they infringe on freedoms. Individual rights are not the basis of libertarian rights. At it’s core it’s just not breaking the NAP. Libertarian thought is broken up in a few different groups. Utilitarian libertarians aren’t concerned with rights as much as efficient social life and utility. They are completely different from natural rights libertarians.
b) I am giving specifics. You continue to act as if life is binary. It’s not. You can’t magically make right infringement disappear. You make small gains. You stop the government from taking your home, you help keep bad laws from passing, etc.
c) sure, ok.
d) telling of what? You just throw out comments that sound insightful and deep and provide no substance. It is not possible to determine the future. Period. Therefore it’s a perfectly legitimate and obvious statement that I can not determine my affect on the world till after something happens.
e) You aren’t able to describe a single idea here. You’ve said nothing of substance. I’ve got plenty of knowledge spewed out on this blog. If you want to challenge my knowledge you’re welcome to.
There are writings of yours which I can find through a Google search that are of a different tone than here. As I said you appear to be advocating not much of anything while I’m advocating being proactive in making a world I’d like to live in.
Your arrogance is obvious by your corrections. This isn’t a college essay. I’m not concerned with double checking everything I write on a blog. You understood me completely.
What makes anything justified exactly? If I’m content with the result thats good enough for me. Just like every other action an individual ever takes. I’d rather try to make a change and fail than sit around having some mental masturbation session with you.
You have still not answered anyone’s question. What do you recommend? What would be more efficient? I’m not interested in Stefan Molyneux type libertarianism where if you imagine your free you’re free and you should disassociate yourself from those who are pro unfree. That’s a cop out. You aren’t a free just because you are left alone within acceptable tolerances. Thinking free doesn’t make people stop infringing on your rights. That’s a pacifistic idea and it doesn’t work.
February 9th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
bosco: I could do lots of things like that but it doesn’t change the system. Not paying taxes isn’t the point. Lots of people don’t pay taxes… if it’s not 100% of the public the problem isn’t solved. This isn’t about me it’s about the entirety of the system. I have better things to do than brew root beer. I’d rather pay someone to do it for me. I’d like that transaction to not be influenced by the government. Just like I don’t want the government to regulate tobacco. I don’t use tobacco products but I’m concerned with the idea of regulation and more importantly it’s implementation not it’s direct impact on my life. If I want to show that the FDA isn’t needed I can point to private QA companies which do it already. I can and do point to QA International and Underwriters Laboratories. Telling a person that their phone isn’t inspected for safety by the government but by UL and telling them to flip it over and look for the stamp is just as good.
I’m not personally interested in after school programs or mentoring. I’d gladly donate money to a program which helped in ways I agreed with but that’s not something that floats my boat. As for a book club… I’d be happy to put up a list of books I’m reading on the site.
February 10th, 2008 at 9:23 am
My apologies if you have already read these or if you don’t have the time to read them. Either way I understand:
Eight ways you can personally help to smash the state (from the eat-your-ballot side of the argument)
Applied Anarchy (from the voting side)
February 10th, 2008 at 11:42 am
1. I do regularly
2. I’ve done occasionally where appropriate
3. The MLP has HardFire and some other show that we bought tapes for and will be showing on the local cable access station in NYC.
4. Not a student
5. Not particularly interested in those groups. As it said they tend to be collectivist and do symbolic things more than not.
6. I do what I can within my comfort zone. If I were a contractor I’d do so more. I’ve done plenty of research on the topic. But as I said before that makes little if any impact on the system as a whole. Besides millions already don’t pay and it doesn’t starve the beast. The beast just goes and prints more money. It becomes more symbolic than anything.
7. I do what I can and have plans for when certain events occur. Not much you can do without greatly hurting yourself in the process. Again this is primarily symbolic. Only when the world is watching is it worth doing. Lauren Canario in NH getting arrested for not cooperating with police after being pulled over got lots of press. If I refuse to pay taxes on items I buy online no one sees it.
8. Is again symbolic and makes no real attempt to change the minds of those who don’t currently agree with you. I understand the idea of growing it to push out the state but it seems just as easy at that point to infiltrate the system and destroy it from the inside. At least doing it that way has the aura of legitimacy that many people give the state.